[dropdedfwed]

Originally Posted by StephenWong

Thank you all for the interesting responsses - from my heart really - because I never thought about sink/kitcken top materials other than Corian.

I did say cultural difference and living harbits make Philippina maid a necessary evil in Hong Kong because THE best choice for domestic helpers for Hong Kong Chinese family should be from local or neighering cities. But the government has forbidden the import of domestic helpers from mainland China ever since and domestic helpers are either Philippina or Indonesian, right?

One of you spotted THE ivory chopsticks and that is exactly what I am talking about - cultural difference - like Chinese families in Hong Kong eat frogs and eels. French eat hares, etc. I can tell you that ivory makes good eating instryment and it can stand for a long long long time.

Once again, thank you all for sharing ideas..

Hello Stephen,

I have been trying in vain to not respond to this, but my hands have been itching to type this.

The issue of ivory - it is not a cultural one. for years british colonist hunted and killed ivory bearing beasts for the treasure, until many were hunted into, or nearly into extinction. up until early this century even westerners were proud of their ivory. however, in the last 50-odd years society at large has tended to frown upon the use of ivory, and as you would be aware, the hunting of creatures for their ivory has been for the best part "outlawed". ok, it still happens. however, most people still associate ivory products with senseless killing. none of my friends are pround to show off ivory anymore, apart from the stuff on the piano...

it is really a moral or ethical issue, not one based on culture. sure, ivory is great, durable, long lasting. that's why it was put into some creature's mouth.

i dont mind that you like ivory - your choice, it is a world where we can decide such things. but don't hide behind "culture" as an excuse or reason. just say it. i like it. i will use some creatures teeth to eat my tucker, because i want to.

eating of frogs, or bugs, snakes, dogs and cats, whatever you like - that is a different issue. it is not killing somehting purely for it's teeth, as was the case with ivory. sure, westerners may find that DISGUSTING, but we dont find it immoral (and if "we" do, we are being a tad hypocrytical - we eat fluffy lil' chickens, cute little lambies and beautiful bovines!).

you wil find that a lot of people frown upon ivory, but unless you say your culture doesn't listen to the outside world, you cant blame culture.

and i still reckon there was a lesson in them breakng, but that's because i am mean.. he he he...

by the way, what did u do with the sink? and the maid

[discobay]

I don't have a Corian sink or ivory chopsticks but I do have home insurance.

[StephenWong]

Thank you for your quick response but to me it's still 'cultural' difference.

Luckily I only owned two pairs of ivory chopsticks and now only one. I also have many pairs of plastic chopsticks. If I can have a choice, I will stick to the ivory pair because it lasts longer rather using the plastic ones and adding to other environmental problem.

BTW, home insurance will not cover the broken sink.

[discobay]

Everything but the kitchen sink eh!

[Katanga]

dropdedfwed

Sorry for butting in here but given you are taking the high morale ground let me give you a bit more information:

1. the colonialists al la British were the biggest hunters for the best part of 2 years of all wild game for simple kicks (and I wuold know having been born and brough up in Africa in an ex-colonial country). Even in India the Tiger population was wiped out during the raj,

2. Ivory was the single biggest reason that CITIES was signed but let me correct you that Ivory was legal until
the early 1980's.

I cannot tell you how sad it was in the late 70's early 80's to be living in Africa. Very simply put the govt of the country I was in decided that the ban will be in place 2 years later. The massacares that took place in those 24months was unbeliveable. Again, the big buyers of all wild game things (called curios in Africa, funnily enough) were mainly western people. The only exception was hordes of Chinese people for Ivory and Arabs for Rhino horns.

It is sad to see that in this day and age people want to use ivory objects (stepehn, does the food taste different ?)

I was luck enough to have been brought up in a country where you would see heards of elephents numbering in the 200's. How sad is it now that you are considered lucky to see a heard of 20-40.

yeah....Stephen, how's the sink ? And did you upgrade the main ?

[StephenWong]

1. Without feeling guilty, I bought the two pairs of ivory chopsticks long before the ban - it really lasts.

2. The food does not taste better but ivory does not carry smell like other materials, such as plastic or wooden.

3. My sink is a double one so that I can survive with using one side only.

4. Other than the reason of the broken sink, my wife and I have decided to remove my maid - due to cultural difference.

Many thanks

[dropdedfwed]

Originally Posted by Katanga

dropdedfwed

Sorry for butting in here but given you are taking the high morale ground let me give you a bit more information:

1. the colonialists al la British were the biggest hunters for the best part of 2 years of all wild game for simple kicks (and I wuold know having been born and brough up in Africa in an ex-colonial country). Even in India the Tiger population was wiped out during the raj,

2. Ivory was the single biggest reason that CITIES was signed but let me correct you that Ivory was legal until
the early 1980's.

I cannot tell you how sad it was in the late 70's early 80's to be living in Africa. Very simply put the govt of the country I was in decided that the ban will be in place 2 years later. The massacares that took place in those 24months was unbeliveable. Again, the big buyers of all wild game things (called curios in Africa, funnily enough) were mainly western people. The only exception was hordes of Chinese people for Ivory and Arabs for Rhino horns.

It is sad to see that in this day and age people want to use ivory objects (stepehn, does the food taste different ?)

I was luck enough to have been brought up in a country where you would see heards of elephents numbering in the 200's. How sad is it now that you are considered lucky to see a heard of 20-40.

yeah....Stephen, how's the sink ? And did you upgrade the main ?

hey Katanga,

no need to apologise. thanks for your info, and sorry if i seem to be on a moral high-horse. your first point was exactly wot i was trying to say re "our" culture having ivory in it's past. regarding massacres etc ... us westerners are seriously "cushioned" from the harsh realities of anything like this. and yes, we are somewhat idealistic. i don't pretend to be an expert on this stuff, i was just venting my opnions, but it is really interesting (and disturbing) to hear an "insiders" views of what really happens.

we sit here and say "ban ivory", but we dont htink of the many families/societies that must have depended on the trade, directly or indirectly. is the same on a smaller scale in different niches of society - ban woodchipping - what about the poor buggers who have done nothing but work in that industry since day one? that's one stance... the other, well, what about the generations of people that wont see the tree/animals/clean air... 2 sides to each coin...

to get back to topic, sort of (no corian sink in this post) you have made the ivory issue much worse than i thort it was, and i think it now leaves a worse taste in my mouth (no, i dont use those bl**dy chopsticks!), but i'm glad u mentioned it.

seriusly, thanks dude.

okies, off the horse now...

but one question, and i am not being racist... maybe u can answer this stephen - do chinese not care about this sort of thing? the responses i get from chinese/HK locals regarding ivory etc seem to be purely objective - the subjectiveness does not seem to come into it. as a "modern" (i hope) westerner, i look at a product and think about it's source, i htink about it's effect on society and environment, and i thnk about the functionality. then i come to a conclusion as to whether or not i will use/buy such a product. is this part of "THE" cultural difference u speak of stephen? no sarcasm, no nastiness, just an honest, open question. when you think of ivory, u think of a strong, durable, clean product, not an animals tusk, right? hmmmmm. really is interesting.

[dropdedfwed]

Originally Posted by discobay

Everything but the kitchen sink eh!

disco, you crack me up....!

[StephenWong]

Exactly as you said, the local ivory industry was so much affected by the 'ban' - Hong Kong used to be one of the largest ivory carving centres in the region.

Talking about the 'cultural difference', I think HK Chinese take a more pragmatic view of the eating instrument. Come to think about it - the first tool of the mankind is stone followed by animal bones.

[dropdedfwed]

Originally Posted by StephenWong

Exactly as you said, the local ivory industry was so much affected by the 'ban' - Hong Kong used to be one of the largest ivory carving centres in the region.

Talking about the 'cultural difference', I think HK Chinese take a more pragmatic view of the eating instrument. Come to think about it - the first tool of the mankind is stone followed by animal bones.

very, very good point.

however, we also have stopped sleeping in caves. and, when was the last time u hunted, killed, skinned and gutted what u planned to eat? the point is - we think, we change, we evolve. and our forebearers would not have killed a beast just to use it's teeth to eat with - they would have eaten it as well ivory hunters just took the glory. that's what most people got the p**ps about, and rightly so. it was a repulsive waste of lives for a selfish treasure.

re pragmatism, thankyou for saying that. it makes it a little easier to understand the differences in ideals. it really is a diverse place we live in!

isn't it amazing what a benign post can turn into - who would have thought a broken sink could have brought all this up? even if it was a corian?