[Harpua]

I have been in Hong Kong for the past two months on a temporary assignment...on expat terms...same US salary, housing allowance, per diem, medical coverage, etc. It's been quite nice, but they want to "localize" me to a package that will be slightly above the Hong Kong labor market (which is lower than the US for my field). This office is pretty much all local Chinese, and there have been some rumblings about equity injustice and the sorts. There is no argument that my skills are not in the local market.

So I am in negotiations with our US-based HR to reach an agreement. I have a strong argument that I deserve a non-localized package, and they agree. They've asked me to present my request and justification to kick-off the negotiation process. Basically, why I should not be considered a local.

I have some ideas, but looking for your input based on your experience living here. I got the skills/market part of it covered, but looking for ideas of why its more expensive (or a hardship) for me to live here than a local. I have:

- English books are twice as expensive.
- Western healthy food is very expensive.
- Poor air quality.
- Poor access to outdoor activities (golf, snowboarding, mountain biking types of things).
- General step back in quality of life. (sense of space/privacy, bureaucracy, challenging work environment because lack of teamwork/ownership, long work hours).
- US taxes on worldwide income. No deduction if fail physical presence test.

I don't know about the medical insurance or retirement system here. We have subsidized medical coverage and 401k retirement plans in the US.

I really like Hong Kong, but just trying to work out the best and fair deal for myself.

Thanks very much in advance

[fly]

It makes a difference as well if you are single or married, any kids or dependents in hk?

[KnowItAll]

The strongest argument to HR and home office management is productivity....

If you have something to offer which they cannot find locally, use and abuse that strength in your negotiation.

Also, use your connections in the home office. The folks there need and want a familiar face in their "exotic orient operations". Cultural affinity, ability to communicate informally, connections are very important to home office people.. goes both ways.

Rest is all fluff in my opinion... if you put too much emphasis on personal stuff, the people at HR (who usually are the boring and unimaginative sort) and more importantly the person who signs off will start to loose focus.

Keep in mind.. you are at your job because you make money for your company. No other reason...

IF someone mentioned stuff like cost of english books etc to me... I'd be offering their job to the next eager candidate who wants an offshore job on his resume. (And I'd offer to ship his Amazon.Com orders in the weekly courier shipment to Hong Kong).

A key to sucess in negotiations like this, is to convince the person signing off.. how easy and wonderful their life would be with you in the right place. (Most people would not give a rats arse about your lung problems..)

So.. how badly do you want to stay?

[berryplucker]

Originally Posted by Harpua

- English books are twice as expensive.

Rubbish. Ship them through Amazon. The discounts more or less offset the shipping and the result is the same as you would pay in a high street store at home.

Originally Posted by harpua

- Western healthy food is very expensive.

And traditional Chinese food is no doubt expensive where you come from. Western food really isn't that expensive if you shop at Park'n'Shop or Wellcome. Great and City Super are the equivalent of shopping at Harrods (sorry - don't know the US equivalent).

Originally Posted by harpua

- Poor air quality.

No worse than London. Much better than Beijing or Mexico City. No discernible effect on health from the statistics.

Originally Posted by harpua

- Poor access to outdoor activities (golf, snowboarding, mountain biking types of things).

And there's poor access to watersports in St Moritz. It's ludicrous to complain about the lack of snowboarding in the tropics. Golf is a major pastime here . If you can't find it then you can't be looking very hard.

Originally Posted by harpua

- General step back in quality of life. (sense of space/privacy, bureaucracy, challenging work environment because lack of teamwork/ownership, long work hours).

Many people regard HK as a far superior place to live and work. If you don't like it then that is just your subjective opinion. The answer is to get a job somewhere else: there's no reason for an employer to compensate you for your personal preferences.

Originally Posted by harpua

- US taxes on worldwide income. No deduction if fail physical presence test.

You voted for your government. No other major country imposes tax based on citizenship. If you don't like it then find an Irish ancestor or something and get a better nationality. Again, this is not your employer's problem.

Originally Posted by harpua

I don't know about the medical insurance or retirement system here. We have subsidized medical coverage and 401k retirement plans in the US.

And HK has an excellent public health system funded out of the very minimal taxes, and a Mandatory retirement scheme which requires your employer to contribute more than you do.

Originally Posted by harpua

I really like Hong Kong

well it certainly doesn't come across that way...

[KnowItAll]

>> tax based on citizenship

Based on residency... even green card holders with no voting rights have to pay taxes.

[Baron]

Berryplucker, i think harpua was just trying to come up with arguments to use as a basis in their defense. I don't think you should take them as personal 'dislikes' of Hong Kong!

[HKFella]

Absolutely second that, Baron.

Don't get disheartened by that other response, Harpua. If your company sent you here from the US, you have a case with the essence of your arguments (if not the minor details which can individually be rebutted or supported, depending on mindset (and "subjective opinion") of the respondent in question, be it BP or your HR person).

It might help your cause to know, traditional expats from N. America on transfer to HK would generally get a cost of living increase of 25-40% on base salary. This is after neutralizing or removing from the equation any costs on acct of accommodation, kids' education, relocation, country or expat allowances, medical reimb, and retirement benefits, as well as tax differential.

Many a time a local package can turn out to be "better" than an expat one (e.g. more cash in hand traded off against less fancy housing), but it's very hard to generalize.

[NightWalker]

Also consider half of the reason you are here in hk might be because there might not be enough reason (personally) to keep you back home. Such a small price to pay for a totally new life. Exciting... eh

[syrup]

berry...
these are all reasonable questions that I had when first doing the relocate thing. A western friend of mine who has been living in HK/china for 17years gave me some very good advice.

"hk is no longer a UK colony. Its chinese and therefore many of the previous expat rules/conditions dont apply. Assess if you can live in HK as it is now - chinese. That will answer your questions."

good luck

[Corapanther]

Water and air quality are more or less qualms with anyone in this area. But while it is true it is a weak arguement unless you have medical reasons, such as asthma.

Things that would be taken more seriously: language barrier, and also appropriate job placement.

But overall have an upbeat attitude. If I were you i would question whether I want to go to Hong Kong in the first place. You will be hard pressed to find a "dream job" over here even if you are educated overseas. It's more often than not exhausting, at times underappreciated and also you find yourself scrimping and saving with the locals. Rarely is there a perfect job here.

Lastly locals resent those from cross borders who sound spoiled to them. I think your post reflects a hint of what they would consider being spoiled. If you're dealing with local HR you should play with your words carefully.