[beeph]

Originally Posted by er2

Funny... I've heard people calling the US a police state, but those were usually not citizens who had their fingerprints taken, their passenger data stored and their financial transactions monitored without any reason - something that the US government is not allowed to do to citizens....

Funny, I'm a US citizen, and I've had all the above happen thanks to the patriot act. Go read a banker's forums to see what they're required to do now. The US has essentially deputized the entire banking industry to try to enforce laws ad hoc.


And I don't think they try to "export" their laws.

No, they're just trying to tell a hong kong bank in hong kong how to deal with people in hong kong. For all intents, and purposes, how is that not attempting to export a law? Granted, you cant LITERALLY export laws.

I don't have to pay tax because I'm not a US citizen. If I was, I have to pay tax. And laws should not depend on whether you have cash or not. I don't like paying taxes that much either, and in certain circumstances I might cheat and bear the risk of getting caught. But if having enough cash just allows you to ignore the law, then it shouldn't be a law anymore. All the US do is tell the banks "If you help _our_ citizens to cheat on taxes, we will hold you accountable _if we can_."

Isnt that the definition of enforcing a law? holding someone accontable, if they can?


If HSBC would decide to cease (or sell) their US operations, they could just ignore US jurisdiction. They prefer to run a US subsidiary, well, then they need to stick to the law.

They do. They dont help anyone do anything illegal. If you're a client and pay your taxes, great.. if u dont, then shame on u. If you use that money to buy some illegal pirated DVDs, evade taxes, screw your business partner on some deal, how the hell are they supposed to police that? They're just not interested in taking on the US banking regulation framework which has proven oh so beneficial.

Aside from this, I'd say the usual definition of a police state would be that the police can look into your account, see all your transactions, and then ask you "So why do you invest in Baidu and not in Google".

Ever been audited?

As far as I know, all you need to do is to state that you have an investment account here and how much revenue you earned. Not too bad, imho....

As far as you know? Are you joking? Do you know how long and how much it took for me to prepare my taxes last year? Is this a sick joke?
How old are you 23?

If you don't want to follow US laws then just renounce your citizenship and stay out of the country.

For 10 years the US can continue to levy taxes AFTER YOU'VE RENOUNCED CITIZENSHIP. There's also a bunch of other berlin wallesque legislation on the books. Read up on it before offering your wonderful opinion.

I'm sure with obama we can expect more visionary thinking along these lines, too. PS thanks to the great and wonderful uncle sam, i wasted probably 5 grand and a month on trying to open a company here in hong kong to do business with our chinese suppliers. Not being 'big enough' because of course all small businessmen are 'tax evading drug money launders', until proven innocent. It's just too much hassle to do business with americans if you're a bank.. unless you're big. Anyway I've shut down my business because lets face it, the chinese pretty much do as they please.. they ignore all these laws on the books and just risk it. How do u compete with that? I can no longer compete when I got uncle sam 'helping me' so much. I fired 5 americans and 20 chinese and the americans are all still unemployed. The chinese all got new jobs in a week.

Wonder why?

Oh god I could go on and on about how so many times key funds were frozen to get more substantiating 'paperwork' for 'know your customer' when i was a fully licensed and registered company in 2 states.. and had operated for 5 years. All shit u never had to put up with in the past. Now they wanna see 'proof of good standing' and 75$ here 100$ there, week delay here, week delay there. It's truly wonderful. Of course if your spoiled brat american customers dont get their shit ON TIME they bitch and moan and go buy from a foreign competitor because hey i mean when it comes time to have all these wonderful socialist laws in place they vote vote vote for it but when it comes time to buy shit they buy the cheapest piece of chinese crap made by an 8 year old they can possibly get! I love the fantasy world the average american gets to live in, and vote based on.

[er2]

Originally Posted by beeph

They do. They dont help anyone do anything illegal. If you're a client and pay your taxes, great.. if u dont, then shame on u. If you use that money to buy some illegal pirated DVDs, evade taxes, screw your business partner on some deal, how the hell are they supposed to police that? They're just not interested in taking on the US banking regulation framework which has proven oh so beneficial.

They make money from you evading taxes. They don't make money from you buying forged DVDs. Imho an important difference.

Originally Posted by beeph

As far as you know? Are you joking? Do you know how long and how much it took for me to prepare my taxes last year? Is this a sick joke?
How old are you 23?

No. I asked a friend who is an accountant about the 1099 DIV that was mentioned below. I still think this is what you are legally obliged to do, and that it doesn't disclose all your transactions for the government to look at whenever they like. I also know what an audit is, and while I have never had one myself and don't know anyone who had his investment account audited by the US IRS, I still assume that it means that they check whether you stated your income correctly. I don't think that the authorities can just have a look into your account whenever they like without you even knowing (that would be sort of my definition of a police state). But that might be wrong.

I am very aware that I don't have a full understanding of this. That is why I use phrases like "As far as I know", feel free to correct me. No, I'm not kidding, I just expect people to be able to stay on topic (which was how US tax law in enforced when setting up an offshore investment account). I didn't mean to defend that tax law. I just dislike laws that exist but are only enforced on those who don't have the means to set up offshore accounts. On the other effects of the US tax system I have no information and therefore no opinion.

Originally Posted by beeph

For 10 years the US can continue to levy taxes AFTER YOU'VE RENOUNCED CITIZENSHIP.

My quote was "and stay out of the country". Could they still levy you? Would HSBC give a shit if you show up with a HKSAR passport? (non-rhetorical questions)

Don't get me wrong, I don't say the US legislation is good or adequate or anything, I just like that they enforce the laws they have unlike, say Germany, which heavily taxes everyone who earns an income in Germany but turns a blind eye to those who bring their money to Liechtenstein or HK and then live off tax-free dividends.

[1fiscalpilot]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I think we have slightly drifted off course. My original question was directly related to setting up a brokerage account legally in Hong Kong without having to pay US tax. Clearly this is not possible as I still have to fill out a 1099 and pay long-term capital gains tax of 15%. The benefit to the US government is obvious; more revenue. However, as a resident of Hong Kong, this policy feels intrusive and unfair. I do not benefit from infrastructure, school and social service improvements back in the US. I do feel like my civil liberties and right to privacy have been jeopardized by legislation such as the "Patriot Act."

If I lived in the UK, I would expect to live according to their laws and tax codes. I would pay the +40% tax rate and would benefit from the social services they offer. So why should I be penalized by the US for living in a country where my tax exposure is much less?

[er2]

fair enough but for this issue I'll believe you'll find already quite a few threads here. From a European perspective, 15% capital gains tax sounds ok to me

Out of interest... If you are, say, some US IB big shot working as an expat in Paris or Berlin. You're income is so high that the 70K$ tax free is negligible. Do you end up with ~80% total income tax?

[MovingIn07]

If I were the OP, I would acquire citizenship of another country and use that country's passport to open overseas bank accounts and just not tell the US anything about it. Perhaps a drastic solution, but I tend to agree with the OP that taxing somebody who has left the country and is not gaining any benefit of the usages of tax is unfair. Again, I thank god (or better, my parents) for not being born an American!

[er2]

Originally Posted by MovingIn07

Again, I thank god (or better, my parents) for not being born an American!

To be fair, the more common case in the world are people praying to win in the green card lottery....

[PDLM]

Indeed - if you don't want to live in the US in future then just get another passport (I think Singapore would be pretty easy to get if you lived there for a couple of years if you don't already have one), renouncing your US citizenship.

I have family members (by marriage) who seem intent on moving to the US and naturalizing as US Citizens, and at the moment I seem to be fighting a losing battle to persuade them that in the long run this is not a sensible course of action - there are other places they could reasonably easily get into and then get permanent residence and then citizenship without the lifetime tax burden that comes with US Citizenship (Canada, Australia, Singapore (although that has the national service problem for younger people), and various wetsern European countries come to mind).

[beeph]

Yeah, laws on the books of course state the US can levy for 10 years but it requires cooperation of course, of either you, or the enforcement people in the country you fled to, (or their bank) so may or may not be feasible.

I know those check-into-cash usury places can actually call the company you work for and garnish your wages, lol. There's lots of ways to hunt down a man who is property of the US.

Tax reporting is more complicated if you have diverse investments, banks, trades, etc for you paranoid types who arent praying for bank/broker bailout when they are more concerned with policing customers instead of themselves.

Remember the golden rule of big government - the smarter you are, or more innovative, the more you're penalized.