[Sunfire]

I did not feel I had to write all that. You addressed me in your post, and I felt like replying.

Call it a diatribe all you want, I know there is no recourse with the government, because I have been in contact with them, and their position is firm. Do you think I haven't done my research, and been able to find out a fair amount more by being able to read and speak finnish? I've read through the laws, I've read through other people's experiences, and I've confirmed it by being in direct contact with the relevant authorities.

Kimi Räikkönen is a bad example. Not only is/was his situation entirely different from mine, but he is a famous person, thus making the respect argument strange to say the least. I'd also say he has a fair amount more money than I do, and would not exactly be in the shitter financially if he had to spend a year on only a conscript's pay, which can barely get you a chocolate bar per day.

You can also not choose where you're stationed. As a military man, I believe you know they'll put you where they see fit. You may be able to influence their decision, but there are no certainties. 6 months, 12 months, 18 (as NCO), it's all up to them. I can afford none.

I appreciate your sentiment, but I have no need to love "my country" as I do not define myself by something as trivial as nationality.

[Boris]

I appreciate your sentiment, but I have no need to love "my country" as I do not define myself by something as trivial as nationality.

Until of course, you need a passport and then find that defining oneself works ----- both ways.

[PDLM]

I'm with sunfire on the principle of this. I would love to be able to get some sort of "citizen of the world" travel document - I have no wish to be defined by a passport of a country which I was born in through no fault of my own and to which I have no desire to return.

[Hamton]

Originally Posted by Boris

I looked up Kimi Raikkonen. Famous guy who no doubt would have been exempt ? Nope - he did his service in 2000 and was still able to attend to all his responsibilities.

That's a terrible example.

Famous, multi-millionaire F1 driver... yeh, like a year out of his real life obligations is going to hurt him. I doubt he's got a mortgage to pay, a family to look after (he's married now but wasn't in 2000) or is going to suffer much from taking a year out of motor racing. I'm sure the interest payments alone on his wealth would keep him in champagne and hookers for eternity.

Originally Posted by Boris

Anyway - don't waste your energy on a nonsensical argument. I hope you find a way to a) stay in HK & b) love your country.

Conscription = loving your country? What bullshit. Especially in Finland's case, it's not as if Finland's under and sort of military threat nowadays. If it was 1939 and they demanded conscription to defend against the Soviets, fair enough, but nowadays it's laughable.

Fortunately I come from a neutral country and didn't have to experience such idiocy. Though I did stupidly go through training years back considering to become an officer -- it's a pretty hellish experience, though I was stupid enough to volunteer for that and didn't have to stay long.

[hullexile]

Originally Posted by Sunfire

I did not feel I had to write all that. You addressed me in your post, and I felt like replying.

Call it a diatribe all you want, I know there is no recourse with the government, because I have been in contact with them, and their position is firm. Do you think I haven't done my research, and been able to find out a fair amount more by being able to read and speak finnish? I've read through the laws, I've read through other people's experiences, and I've confirmed it by being in direct contact with the relevant authorities.

Kimi Räikkönen is a bad example. Not only is/was his situation entirely different from mine, but he is a famous person, thus making the respect argument strange to say the least. I'd also say he has a fair amount more money than I do, and would not exactly be in the shitter financially if he had to spend a year on only a conscript's pay, which can barely get you a chocolate bar per day.

You can also not choose where you're stationed. As a military man, I believe you know they'll put you where they see fit. You may be able to influence their decision, but there are no certainties. 6 months, 12 months, 18 (as NCO), it's all up to them. I can afford none.

I appreciate your sentiment, but I have no need to love "my country" as I do not define myself by something as trivial as nationality.

Also feel for you, as Boris does by what he says. I think conscription is wrong unless in an extreme threat situation. Even then I'm not convinced. The UK seems to survive quite happily without it and we seem to get involved in more conflicts than most. Why Finland needs it is beyond me. Wish you the best but no practical help to give, sorry.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Hamton

That's a terrible example.

Famous, multi-millionaire F1 driver... yeh, like a year out of his real life obligations is going to hurt him. I doubt he's got a mortgage to pay, a family to look after (he's married now but wasn't in 2000) or is going to suffer much from taking a year out of motor racing. I'm sure the interest payments alone on his wealth would keep him in champagne and hookers for eternity.

Conscription = loving your country? What bullshit. Especially in Finland's case, it's not as if Finland's under and sort of military threat nowadays. If it was 1939 and they demanded conscription to defend against the Soviets, fair enough, but nowadays it's laughable.

Fortunately I come from a neutral country and didn't have to experience such idiocy. Though I did stupidly go through training years back considering to become an officer -- it's a pretty hellish experience, though I was stupid enough to volunteer for that and didn't have to stay long.

On the first point -its a perfect example of someone who POSSIBLY could have been exempted, decided to do his service and not run away. Those people that know suitable Finnish examples should look them up as I did and make their own judgment. How many do you know and how many have you looked up ???

On the second point .
That is clearly not what I said but being objective in your comments seem to be a minority objective of yours. I stated " love your country" purely as a point to make about the way he dissed his own nation and felt he needed to be a citizen of the world. Until that is -- he needs a passport.

On your third point.
Everyone comes from a neutral country until they go to war with someone. Even places like Switzerland have had a pretty violent past. Unlike you I had the strength of character to serve for 25 yrs not 25 days. Not with mindless, trench digging, baby killing, morons that most civis claim we all are ( until they need saving from an aggressor ). I had those years with brave people who, in some cases, laid down their lives in conflict, fought fires to save your home during strikes by firemen and kept the lights on in your home whilst you enjoyed TV with comedians making you laugh in front of a warm fire sipping a cold beer - because the power workers wanted to make your life hell and we had the skills to help.

ALSO - whilst I am on this rant - its not all about fighting. Look locally to the recent earthquake and typhoon. To the Tsunamis and the Hurricane damages elsewhere. Is it you - in your comfortable designer shoes and perfect hair that is getting down an dirty helping unfortunate victims of these tragedies ???? Of course not - you can feel you have done you bit by putting 100 bucks in a box - Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen from all over the world get involved because they have the skills and fortitude. I salute the PLA for there huge bravery and undoubted hard work. With a lot more to come. It is this contribution that makes the PLA beloved on the mainland and they continually help the local communities.

Anyone here from The West Indies will support me in the thanks the Royal Navy gets every time a blast comes through and destroys more of what little they had. It was my duty and pleasure to help.

[Hamton]

Boris, why you felt the need to PM me that message too, I have no idea.

But it's a bit patronising. You're making complete assumptions about everyone else.

I'm Irish - a neutral country - but my grandfathers both decided to volunteer to fight in WWII, one as an RAF pilot, to protect Britain (when they had absolutely no need to). I fully understand the point of joining the army to protect your country or your values.

But the rest of your post just seemed to turn into some "respect the army, respect me!!" rant. I don't disrespect the army at all. I've just said I'm against conscription, unless it happens to be WWIII.

Sure, it's great that the armies help people in disaster situations. It's also great that nurses and doctors treat people. It's great that teachers educate children. It's great that farmers make food for us to eat. It's all great and lovely. But it has absolutely no barring on being forced into conscription to 'serve and love your country'.

What I learnt from my short few months in training, was that, aside from having fun with friends over a drink at the end of the day, the entire process was fucking physical and mental torture, presumably with the goal of turning you into some kind of mindless order-obeying machine. I just seem to remember a good deal of it being up at 5:30am every morning to run in the ice cold, lots more running after that, with a spot of cleaning urinals with a tooth brush (oh yes, and it did seem all the seniors were the definition of a bully). As treatment goes, it's about as poor as I've seen humans treated in the first world, so no, I'm not really all singing for conscription and shouting for everyone to go join the army.

As for the "soldiers are better than you, they have the skills" - it seems 9 times out of 10, the soldiers are soldiers precisely because they don't have the skills or intelligence. It's a last resort. They either fuck up their A Levels or have no other options, so they go to the barracks, then get sent out to Iraq to be shot at. The reality is, the more intelligent people usually have the wealth and intelligence to avoid going to hostile places to be shot at.

RE The PLA... the same PLA that execute Chinese and send their parents a bill for the bullet?

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Hamton

RE The PLA... the same PLA that execute Chinese and send their parents a bill for the bullet?

Its not the PLA its the armed police which is a separate arm of the main police - even has its own hospitals and health care. . Seems you think everyone in OGs in China is Army.

As for the rest - Ireland is NOT a neutral country - it just declared itself non combatant in WW2. I have great mates from the Irish Navy FYI so your point about the army is lost and I served alongside them around the world in conflict and salvation situations. Also lost is how you can read into what I said as anything like " better than you ".

Your view of service is obviously tainted about not making the grade mentally and trying the age old trick of trying to demean the process. It was that which I pointed out.

[jimbo]

So to put in a nutshell

You're not willing/able to do national service because you have 'dependants'

You don't care about your home 'country'

Then your choice is

Marry your gf and get HK I.D then stay here as thats your only option now. Don't make excuses such as you want to do it for the right reasons etc etc as what other ideal options do you have?

[KnowItAll]

Lets leave the judgmental posts aside - other than Boris and Hamton, I doubt anyone is in a position to pontificate about serving the country and all that nonsense.

Might be worth talking to a lawyer with some immigration experience to see if they can help. There is nothing that says that the document of identity should be given to specific nationalities or not. All immigration is telling you is - it is usually given in these circumstances.

One thing, most of the legal aid type groups who deal with these issues are geared to deal with poor immigrants / illegals and asylum seekers, to might have a tough time getting pro-bono assistance here.