[texasaxel]

There are a lot of polls like this in the European papers at the moment. As a former Hong Kong resident I am interested in your opinion.

Originally I thought of doing a poll but a discussion thread might be more interesting.

So how would you respond to a poll question like this one:

Would the threat of boycotting the Olympics deter the Chinese government from crushing Tibeting protests by force?

[MovingIn07]

so why should a riot now affect the Olympics? they knew all about China's human rights record when they gave them the games, so anyone who boycotts because of something which is, frankly, "normal" for China is pretty twofaced - should have decided to boycott when they were awarded, not now. I have huge sympathy for the tibetans, but you have got to ask yourself about the timing of the riots! What would US or UK police do if people started rioting? Maybe not kill people, or as many people, but would not stand aside either. China is damned if they do and damned if they don't - it's a huge country with many difficult issues to grapple with right now and seems to be moving in the right direction quite fast in my humble oppinion. I can't think a boycot would help AT ALL and may set the process back tens of years. Let's support them, lets get foreigners into China to set examples, let's not damn them forever. Us westerners did some bad things in the past too - and we did not develop half as fast as China is.

[Skyhook]

Originally Posted by MovingIn07

Us westerners did some bad things in the past too - and we did not develop half as fast as China is.

Really ? What a silly statement to make.
Western civilisation has advanced faster than any other in human history over the last 300 years, or are you ignoring the many great technological wonders that we all take for granted ?

Things like

• Space exploration, Telco Sats in orbit, The Russians, man landing on the moon. USA
• The aviation industry USA
• The invention of Electricity and the light bulb. Tesla and Edison etc. USA and Europe
  
• Radio Communication Marconi Europe, RADAR the UK
• The invention of the Internet/intra net Tim Berners-Lee UK and USA.
• the industrial revolution the British
• the invention of the internal combustion and the Jet engine Zee Germans Europe.
• the invention of the computer IBM ie the USA

I could list 1000's of things that we the West invented and have contributed most to the world that we currently enjoy, regardless that some members display authority to protect the global status quo, to stop those willing enough to throw a spanner in our works and sending us back into the stone age. aka the Great leap forward ( back wards) via Chairman Mao's dysfunctional regime. Even the mainland Chinese are willing to admit that mistake. Which is why Hu Jintao is correcting a lot of the mistakes from the past.

However, I do acknowledge that China has advanced, but its not advancing in an innovative manner, not like the Japanese did, in which the Japanese doubled the quality of each model cycle of products they produced, and charged premium prices for their "quality " gear ( during the 80's especially ). Companies like Sony who invented the Walkman, Video 8, VHS ( sold off to JVC ), Umatic, BetaSP and brought us PCM audio formats professionally, and the JV partner and co patent holder with Phillips of the worlds first CD players back in 1982. Not to mention the invention of the DVD and multi channel discreet digital audio formats helped along by companies like Dolby Laboratories and Digital Theatre Systems ( DTS) of the USA.

Japans post war constitution was written by the Americans by the way, and is still closely monitored by the US. Okinawa anybody ?

China is doing o.k, but needs to climb the quality fence and develop an attitude of producing quality over its current repertoire of cheaply made unoriginal products that last 12 months.

It was easy for the Japanese that have the Bushido code of society in which it is unacceptable to not do your very best, China from what i have seen doesn't have that core fundamental societal lock in place, but it does make the worlds cheapest products.

When China produces the worlds best gear, I will agree with your blanket statement Moving07, until then, no.

In regard to Tibet

I will agree that any country that has a population of over 1.3 billion people, that it would necessitate an authoritarian form of govt, otherwise you will have total anarchy in the streets as an alternative.

China has managed to keep its society within a well controlled coccoon, whether we like the way they achieve that or not, seems a bit ignorant, once the scale of their population is realised, then we can better understand their many challenges.

Tibet like Hong Kong, from what little I know about this subject, has a one country 2 systems situation, and historically China has had control over Tibet for more than 1000 years, so whats the problem ?

So we can boycott the Olympics if we want, which is dumb in my opinion, and really only hurts the athletes themselves. It also wont help Tibet in any tactile way, during or after the Olympics.

The whole point of the Olympic games is to ignore politics and put differences aside for a couple of weeks. If Tibet was such a contentious issue, why hasn't the USA and the like, introduced a trade embargo with China ? Because at the end of the day, nobody cares what China does, as long as there is money to be made. Right ?

Using the Olympics as a political lever is insulting to the event, and screams cold war rhetoric that the Russians suffered under the McCarthy era and displays mega arrogance by those willing enough to manipulate the event at the expense of whats meant to be a friendly global event.


Just let sleeping dogs lie during the Olympics and let the diplomats sort out the underbelly issues, like Tibet, Taiwan etc etc etc

[Boris]

Skyhook
In the first part of your article / rant you confuse technological advances with civilization. The two are completely separate concepts. Point in case . Just because Henry Ford invented modern mass production doesn't make Americans a great civilisation.

In regards your comment -
" Japans post war constitution was written by the Americans by the way, and is still closely monitored by the US. Okinawa anybody ? "
Are you saying thats was a GOOD thing. If so I think the assimilation of Japanese culture at the time was extremely ill judged and akin to what the Spanish did in South America.

I also think your comment -
" When China produces the worlds best gear " shows you have little understanding of what is really produced inside China. Maybe you judge by what you read?

In regard of your comments on Tibet - I am in broad agreement.

I am a fierce critic of the assimilation AND unlike the millions who join me at dinner tables around CHINA, I give my views openly and ( normally ) win the argument from Han Chinese about the rights to be there and their view its part of China. Tibet ( they do not even refer to it buy its true name ) is a holy land and should be considered Shangri-La. The colonisation by the Han is an abomination.

In regard of the Olympics - I see no one offically threatening to boycott. The most I have seen is France saying it will boycott the opening ceremony. Unlike the Moscow boycott, the world actually NEEDS China and it is a stupid PM / President / Government that ignores that fact.

[Sleuth]

A country boycotting the Olympics is silly grand-standing. Individual athletes should be allowed to make up their own minds (and speak their own minds).

Tibet is a shame. One of many shames out there, really. But just because the US/UK did "X" in the past doesn't really give China permission to do "Y" today. It just provides diplomatic
cover.

And I think China has developed a lot faster than the West, with more people involved in the development. Although they have basically just copied what the west did 100 years ago (give or take). However, again that doesn't give them the right to belch out tons of pollution. Doesn't seem China has learned anything from the bad lessons the west was teaching.

[Claire ex-ax]

And I think China has developed a lot faster than the West, with more people involved in the development.

Isn't China merely playing catch up? It has little of its own R&D and demands that companies wishing to enter the China market transfer their technologies in order to do so.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by Claire ex-ax

Isn't China merely playing catch up? It has little of its own R&D and demands that companies wishing to enter the China market transfer their technologies in order to do so.

A very good point and something that is coming back to bite them. As the workforce is more educated they are able to demand more. The peasant culture of cheap labour is fast evaporating. Labour unions have government support. The new labour laws are incredibly debilitating for any western management style.

The only chance China has is to develop its own quality brand and make the west teach them how to do it quick smart. Unfortunately the majority of goods made in China are those items requiring manual labour and ( as was see in a video article on CNN today ) companies are leaving fro Thailand, Cambodia and Vietnam. Then on no doubt to North Korea. There is always some where cheaper !!

Chinese mantra of " follow the instruction " instead of the wests " be the best " is a fatal flaw in thinking that - OK we can make great product now, we can R&D by ourselves so we don't need the foreigners. The culture just does not support such a hypothesis.

[jaykay]

Originally Posted by Boris

Chinese mantra of " follow the instruction " instead of the wests " be the best " is a fatal flaw in thinking that - OK we can make great product now, we can R&D by ourselves so we don't need the foreigners. The culture just does not support such a hypothesis.

Being involved in this area and with so called "Designers" and "Engineers" on the mainland I would have to agree. Their own R&D is extremely weak. Most products they produce are designed abroad and the only engineering many have been exposed to is packaging, i.e. fit everything in this design.

We design and engineer from scratch with an international team based in HK but also using the resources at the factory in China. They are so poorly skilled BUT think they are the best as they have previously packaged cheap products and exported them.

Not wanting to lose face results in so many f up's which are not reported. We face delays and have to investigate to find the f up's. They see us as a threat and they are perfectly happy to send out poor quality prototypes to customers without being checked. One's we have intercepted have had to be returned because of the poor quality.

There is no creativity there as such, R&D is weak, the hierarchical structure that they work under stifles progress and crushes those who have any skills whatsoever. Until this changes then R&D will never be a Chinese strongpoint and if that ever does happen then quite possibly the cashcow of cheap manufacturing would be a train that's long gone.

[Skyhook]

Great posts Sleuth and Jay Kay.

This video pretty much somes up what China can do unaided under its own brand identity, not hiding under an OEM suppliers anonymity.

The third car in the video below is a 2007 Cherry Amulet, watch closely at the way the A pillar transmits the impact energy, concertina's the roof killing the driver 99.9% probability.

YouTube - Crash Test: Comparing chinese death...

Lets look at a 2004 base model $14,999 Toyota Corolla ( small car ) and see how that stacks up as a comparrison.

YouTube - Crash Test (iihs) Toyota Corolla 1.8...

If you build cars today, with the amount of crash safety data thats been recorded over the last 3 decades, you'd have thought the Chinese would have used some of that known data and either utilised it into their own design, or copied somebody elses proven design, like a 1980's W124 Mercedes E class under the skin design, and packaged it as their own. Either way the crash test result would have been within acceptable tolerances, unlike the disaster this crash test revealed.

China manufacturing is the epitome of the Pelicans of Monteray Cliche.
If anybody else is familiar with that saying, you'll know what I mean.

[Claire ex-ax]

China manufacturing is the epitome of the Pelicans of Monteray Cliche.

A worrisome comparison considering China's next venture is into aeroplane manufacturing. Let's hope they... er... acquired the plans from Boeing, not Tupolev.