[Football16]

Agree PDLM about the concept of war from a theoretical point of view.

It is interesting that none of the major world powers have waged war against each other since the end of World War II. Most wars since WWII have mostly been either a big nation stomping a small one and mostly lower tier economic powers or a little one (Vietnam beating back a big one). It is kind of like the old Bob Dylan song, "when you aint got nothing, you got nothing to lose."

What Bush, Sr said about beating Saddam into the ground was covered in his book after leaving the Presidency. He says that if they had gone into Iraq and took out Saddam they would have had no exit strategy so he turned down that advice he was getting. Sound familiar???!!!! Too bad Dubya Jr, didn't read books or he'd have got some nice fatherly advice on what not to do.

The torture of POWs is something that has gone on by all sides for thousands of years and at the end of the day, the view on this issue depends on who is doing the waterboarding. It has little to with religious values but whether the world and its people will adopt civil values that suggest that this sort of thing is wrong.

[Football16]

Love the Lammarite post suggesting waterboarding Dubya just to see how it works.

I also agree Lammarite with your other post that civilizied societies should be above this type of thing and if that happened to a US military captive they'd scream their heads off and rightly so.

John McCain is opposed to this stuff if I recall correctly and he was a POW.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by PDLM

So how many innocent people is it acceptable to torture for each guilty one?

We're not talking here about torturing people whom due legal process has found guilty of involvement in some heinous crime. We're talking about random people who maybe just happened to have the wrong name or mentioned some particular words in a phone call. They have not, in general, been through any legal process.

What exactly were you fighting for in the Gulf(1) if it wasn't for democracy, the rule of law and freedom from unjust punishment?

This just goes to show how totally out of the loop you are. Not just F*****g Nieve but Totally F*****g Nieve !!!


" What exactly were you fighting for in the Gulf(1) if it wasn't for democracy, the rule of law and freedom from unjust punishment? " At all times when I was involved in action I was doing it for my love of country and faith in the belief that my sovereign ( UK forces have the sovereign as CinC ) would not put me in harms way without good reason. I was controlled by a discipline code and regulated ranking system.


I never used hostages to drive bombs or strap explosives to mental patients. It is these types of operatives that will not respond to " good cop, bad cop " and getting information from hardened believers who want to die is EXTREMELY difficult.

IMHO - if water boarding can show the " true believers " that 24 virgins are not waiting for them in paradise then lets have more of it. Take them to the edge of death and bring them back. Its a shame you might believe that life is like "24" . But remember - even in that fiction it still resulted in a Nuclear Detonation.

I am no fan of the idiot GW Bush or the puppet masters with their hand up his arse. But if some unpleasant things have to be done to prevent another Urban Spectacular - so be it.

I think you should lay off this subject PDLM . Business is by no means a qualification for trying to say how realists would safeguard friends and families lives.

[PDLM]

Originally Posted by Boris

" What exactly were you fighting for in the Gulf(1) if it wasn't for democracy, the rule of law and freedom from unjust punishment? " At all times when I was involved in action I was doing it for my love of country

So what exactly is it that you love about your country? Aren't democracy, the rule of law and freedom from unjust punishment a fundamental part of it?

Originally Posted by Boris

But if some unpleasant things have to be done to prevent another Urban Spectacular - so be it.

So how many Iraqi civilians are you happy to have die for each American saved? Personally, I'd rather the money had been spent on eradicating malaria or curing AIDS - the former could certainly have been achieved for a fraction of the price of the Gulf War, and there's a good chance the latter would too.

Originally Posted by Boris

I think you should lay off this subject PDLM . Business is by no means a qualification for trying to say how realists would safeguard friends and families lives.

Fortunately, we live in reasonably civilised, open and (to some extent at least) democratic societies where there are sufficient like-thinking people to keep the likes of you in check.

[KnowItAll]

Where did the original poster go?

[Boris]

PDLM
So explain to me your military experience.

Tell me, ever been shot at? Had a bomb go off near you?

Had to clean up after a bomber decided it would be good to let off one of his creations in a public place?

Are you a relative or friend of someone who has died or been injured in combat?
( FYI - I have 3 friends died and 4 injured on my list ).

Do you condone the use of mental retards, children and hostages for your army?

Are you happy to live in your ivory tower? Maybe -- as long as its not a landmark tall one capable of being hit by an airliner or a large apartment building for Westerners in a Sub Saharan country.

[PDLM]

I'm not sure what you're suggesting here. Are you saying that only people with experience of combat are qualified to judge when (or indeed whether) extra-judicial killings and torture are warranted?

If so then I don't understand what you were doing fighting for a democracy which by its very nature would find such a thing abhorrent.

If not, then why is my experience (which does, as it happens include have a loaded gun pointed at my head and cocked, and having a grandfather who lost an arm in WW1 and was left for dead on a pile of corpses before someone noticed him move) relevant?

The essence of a democracy is that if you don't like the way it is run then you debate with the people and attempt to get things changed by democratic means. This is where Bush is coming unstuck - it's taken him far too long to try to get his preferred methods approved through the democratic process (something that should in any case have been done in advance), and now the people, in the form of congress, have spoken he's throwing a hissy fit because he can't get his way.

You can't reasonably on the one hand say that you fight for democracy and then on the other say that it is OK to override the wishes of the people when they don't happen to agree with the way you (or some minority of like-minded people) think.

[Mat]

Originally Posted by Boris

So explain to me your military experience.

Tell me, ever been shot at? Had a bomb go off near you?

.

Errr....how is that suppose to work....
So we can't judge war cos we never fought?

Well then we can't judge Bush cos none of us has ever been US president?

C'mon Boris...expected better from you there.