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President Bush vetoed a law preventing the CIA using Waterboarding

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Old 11-03-2008, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PDLM View Post
KIA,

Just curious how you can be sure that the person you are torturing is harbouring information whose value justifies the means?
I just saw a movie called Disturbia in which an Egyptian engineer who grew up in the US (but was not a citizen) was suspected of terrorism. He was scooped up at JFK in NYC and shipped back to Egypt and held at a secret prison there (US-controlled) and tortured until he admitted he was involved in a bombing and received $20,000 cash to design a bomb. The engineer made 200k a year. The agent assigned to his case (who witnessed the torture) realized he was merely trying to get the torture to stop, so he helped the engineer escape so he could go back to his son and pregnant wife in the US.

Great movie. I guess I kind of ruined it for you guys though eh? :P

Last edited by jayinhongkong : 11-03-2008 at 12:19 AM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 07:29 AM
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PDLM - Does guilt or the presumption of guilt, really matter in this day and age?
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:18 AM
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PDLM - Does guilt or the presumption of guilt, really matter in this day and age?
More than ever, otherwise the terrorists will have succeeded in destroying in a few years the principles of a civilised society which have taken centuries to establish.
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:23 AM
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The terrorists have done nothing new. Terror has been used ever since society became civilized. Lets not kid ourselves and think terrorism started with 9/11.
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Old 11-03-2008, 08:54 AM
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If anything, as a result of the terrorism we're seeing, we are now paying MORE attention to the injustices those in power perpetrate than ever before. This will (hopefully) improve things rather than make them worse. It has definitely opened a few eyes.
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:08 AM
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More than ever, otherwise the terrorists will have succeeded in destroying in a few years the principles of a civilised society which have taken centuries to establish.
Don't be so F*****g Nieve !!!

Principles are for those with no experience of what the reality is when you are getting down and dirty with an adversary that has absolutely NO scruples and only sees Principles as a store front name to put a bomb inside.

AS for " centuries to establish " . We base our principles on what ? The Crusades, WW1, WW2, Aden, Biafra et al ??

I didn't grow up behind a desk reading about this stuff in the NYT, FT or SCMP. I served in Northern Ireland and the Gulf war ( 1 ). Have served alongside SF on ops around the world. I have been shot at AND bombed.

Intelligence is vital - get it where you can - with whatever means and then have intelligent men break it down to worthy / unworthy. The problem with the US machine is they believe all they hear. Such is the political pressure to achieve results.

The experience of what is required to combat an adversary that has no " discipline manual ", that only gets praise the more inventive means he finds to kill the enemy. That takes praise from a press calling him " devilish, unprincipled " will never have a chance of being vindicated by the Liberal press. Those great journalists that make objective reports are called the " enemy of the state ". The Liberal press want interrogation techniques based perhaps upon the honour system ?

Reality has never been a priority with most jurnos It means you actually have to have experience getting down and dirty, not experience retrieving your pen from under a table in the wine bar round the corner.

Likewise people who write here such inane comments.

Last edited by Boris : 11-03-2008 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:31 AM
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So how many innocent people is it acceptable to torture for each guilty one?

We're not talking here about torturing people whom due legal process has found guilty of involvement in some heinous crime. We're talking about random people who maybe just happened to have the wrong name or mentioned some particular words in a phone call. They have not, in general, been through any legal process.

What exactly were you fighting for in the Gulf(1) if it wasn't for democracy, the rule of law and freedom from unjust punishment?
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:34 AM
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The terrorists have done nothing new. Terror has been used ever since society became civilized. Lets not kid ourselves and think terrorism started with 9/11.
Absolutely - and the principles that many have fought and died for during that period shouldn't be thrown away just because modern mass media means that this generation of terrorists can have their desired effect more readily on more people.
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:46 AM
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What principles exactly have people fought for and died, that did not include doing whatever it took to rid the enemy from the face of this earth?

It is really a matter of semantics... war, make no mistake is about winning. Ends have always justified the means. If it is not, then why bother?

Ok .. enough role playing for me. I've got to install Solaris and test three lines of code.

Where did that thread about a banker who says Hong Kong is just as expensive as London go?
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Last edited by KnowItAll : 11-03-2008 at 09:47 AM.
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Old 11-03-2008, 09:53 AM
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What principles exactly have people fought for and died, that did not include doing whatever it took to rid the enemy from the face of this earth?
Er, absolutely not - war is not (in my book) about killing anyone who disagrees with you. War in general is about doing the minimum necessary to stop people who would wish to kill others or impose a regime on them against their will. Clearly there are judgements to be made. The first Gulf War was probably, in retrospect, stopped too soon - but it was stopped precisely because people could not stomach "ridding the enemy from the face of the earth" in the way that the allied air forces had become able to do.
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