[PDLM]

Originally Posted by hullexile

but there is a major step from explaining how a plane stays in the air to explaining the creation of the universe. The first is based on scientific law (or probably a combination of them, don't ask me I am just glad the bloody thing stays up there) and the second is a theory.

But it's a theory that is entirely consistent with all the scientific laws (which is not, as you note, the same as saying that it can yet be fully defined in terms of scientific laws), whereas taking the Bible as literal truth requires you either to suspend belief in large numbers of scientific laws, or to override them all by saying something like "well yes of course there are fossils which appear to be a million years old even though my imaginary friend created everything only 6000 years ago - that's because he just made them look that way: they're not really that old".

[Skyhook]

O.k Hull, I can see your point of view.

If we are to concentrate on that point for a moment, then science is the basis of seeking answers to unanswered questions. Creating set scientific parameters of what is possible, and what isnt. A non biased motivation of why, via intelligent curiosity, as opposed to being told, well this is the story, deal with it..No matter how unbelieveable the story may be.

I often wonder, that if ever, one day, science has categoric proof that creationism and all religions based on it, is in fact, a load of man made BS, how will the millions of followers around the world react to this discovery? To finally be told that you had faith in a man made lie ? The biggest lie in human history.

Will they go out on a killing rampage ? Will they try and muzzle/kill/erase the scientists that proved it untrue ?

I am pretty confident, that if that discovery were ever made, the world would be in complete anarchy, misery on a scale we have not seen in our life time, by supposedly good people, who lost their religious faith/way....

[dean-dzai]

Originally Posted by hullexile

I think Safran in the atheist clip summed up the argument against this very clearly. Why state as a matter of fact that the big bang/evolutionary argument is scientifically proven when almost no one can explain it fully and when it is still full of holes. For example, what came before and therefore created the big bang? Creationism may be whacko to many, but the scientific argument is also way out there in terms of probability and the evolutionary theory is still be rewritten and modified so it can not be a law. The atheists belief in science is almost as much based on faith as Christian's is on the bible.

It's true. Evolutionists getting clips of Creation Scientists and re-working them on YouTube, inserting tributes as to how stupid they are doesn't challenge the plausibility of their science. Creation Scientists asking 'is your grandfather an ape' doesn't challenge Evolutionary Science. To say, 'ha! Creation is not science', has to face that evolution is also merely a theory, as stated above with several unexplainable holes. My relatives from mainland who were brought up under the Cultural Revolution and were taught Evolution and are not Christian still cannot swallow the Evolution theory (I know, that last comment does not help this thread, but is worth noting).

The Creation theory will never be swallowed by someone who says 'there is no God' regardless of how much good science there is. I can post some YouTube video's if anyone is interested to see of some of the theories which I from a scientific point of view find more water tight then Evolution. (Although this could run this thread out for months I realize).

[hullexile]

Originally Posted by Skyhook

O.k Hull, I can see your point of view.

If we are to concentrate on that point for a moment, then science is the basis of seeking answers to unanswered questions. Creating set scientific parameters of what is possible, and what isnt. A non biased motivation of why, via intelligent curiosity, as opposed to being told, well this is the story, deal with it..No matter how unbelieveable the story may be.

I often wonder, that if ever, one day, science has categoric proof that creationism and all religions based on it, is in fact, a load of man made BS, how will the millions of followers around the world react to this discovery? To finally be told that you had faith in a man made lie ? The biggest lie in human history.

Will they go out on a killing rampage ? Will they try and muzzle/kill/erase the scientists that proved it untrue ?

I am pretty confident, that if that discovery were ever made, the world would be in complete anarchy, misery on a scale we have not seen in our life time, by supposedly good people, who lost their religious faith/way....

My problem was with the argument that the theory of evolution should be renamed a law when it clearly, at least at the moment, is not. As for what would happen if science ever proved that all religions were false, well it is very hard to prove a negative so probably will never happen. If it did, well I would not kill anyone can't speak for all the others. We'll all find out when we die anyway. If I am right then you are in the shit, if you are right then I won't know anything about it. Seems I have made better insurance against future risk if you ask me

[climber07]

Originally Posted by hullexile

The atheists belief in science is almost as much based on faith as Christian's is on the bible.

I'm sorry, Religious nut jobs always use this argument, but it just plain stupid.

Science, does not close doors on new discoveries and in fact the basis of science is to continuously challenge the status quo. If Science, through experimentation, observable and verifiable data comes to a conclusion that ultimately there was a "Supreme Being" it will accept that conclusion. A theory, is a plausible logical explanation based on scientific on logical method, which has not yet been 100% proven so it cannot become Law.

However, Religion closes the mind of the believers and makes people justify their measly existence by reading R / X-Rated bed time stories and wishing to collect their rewards in "afterlife." It forces the observed to accept everything on faith and NEVER to question it.

Religion is a wonderful tool to control the weak minded and per Napoleon (what keeps the poor from murdering the rich). Religion is the shepherd to control the masses and when you try to have a conversation with a "Regular Joe Blow" in rural US, you understand why Religion is necessary.

Religion is necessary to maintain order and peace through fear. It provides the uneducated masses with moral basis and guidance which keeps them from murdering each other (at least in large part). Until we no longer need manual labor, and progress as society to a higher level of general education and intelligence, Religion is necessary to maintain control. It keeps people happier than drugs.

Explain this to me: If You are GOD (A perfect and supreme being), would you still suffer from such human characteristics as INSECURITY, LONELINESS, NEED TO BE LOVED and ACCEPTED?? Would you create a species of beings who would do nothing else but "SERVE" you and "WORSHIP" you? And if they don't you will punish them and make them SUFFER?

That sounds very EGOTISTICAL and rather PATHETIC for a supreme being. But then again.....you can't question GOD because he's all knowing and you are noting.....I forgot...

Bring on the negative marks...I'm so "mean" that I probably made someone cry again..... I'm just expressing my thoughts, if you don't like them....c'est la vie.

[hullexile]

Originally Posted by PDLM

But it's a theory that is entirely consistent with all the scientific laws

So what came before the big bang? Where did the energy come from? From scientific law you can not create energy from nothing so there must have been something there. What was it? Where did it come from? If I've read my Lao Tse correctly the Taoists would argue that 'nothing' created everything and therefore 'nothingness' is the ultimate state. Basically I don't know what the truth is, we probably never will for certain. I think I know, you think you know, but none of us can prove our case. If anyone here can prove their case to me I'm willing to listen.

[PDLM]

Originally Posted by hullexile

So what came before the big bang? Where did the energy come from?

No-one knows. But I don't feel the need to invent something imaginary just for the sake of it. I'm quite happy for scientists to keep trying to work that out, and if they do then it will be of intellectual interest. However, it will make no difference at all to the way that I choose to live my life (unless of course the discoveries they make also have consequences within my lifetime).

I think one of the core differences between many religious and non-religious types is a need (or lack of it) for some ultimate "purpose" in life, defined in grand terms beyond fairly straightforward things such as being happy and comfortable. Personally I feel no such need.

[hullexile]

Originally Posted by climber07

I'm sorry, Religious nut jobs always use this argument, but it just plain stupid.

Science, does not close doors on new discoveries and in fact the basis of science is to continuously challenge the status quo. If Science, through experimentation, observable and verifiable data comes to a conclusion that ultimately there was a "Supreme Being" it will accept that conclusion. A theory, is a plausible logical explanation based on scientific on logical method, which has not yet been 100% proven so it cannot become Law.

However, Religion closes the mind of the believers and makes people justify their measly existence by reading R / X-Rated bed time stories and wishing to collect their rewards in "afterlife." It forces the observed to accept everything on faith and NEVER to question it.

Religion is a wonderful tool to control the weak minded and per Napoleon (what keeps the poor from murdering the rich). Religion is the shepherd to control the masses and when you try to have a conversation with a "Regular Joe Blow" in rural US, you understand why Religion is necessary.

Religion is necessary to maintain order and peace through fear. It provides the uneducated masses with moral basis and guidance which keeps them from murdering each other (at least in large part). Until we no longer need manual labor, and progress as society to a higher level of general education and intelligence, Religion is necessary to maintain control. It keeps people happier than drugs.

Explain this to me: If You are GOD (A perfect and supreme being), would you still suffer from such human characteristics as INSECURITY, LONELINESS, NEED TO BE LOVED and ACCEPTED?? Would you create a species of beings who would do nothing else but "SERVE" you and "WORSHIP" you? And if they don't you will punish them and make them SUFFER?

That sounds very EGOTISTICAL and rather PATHETIC for a supreme being. But then again.....you can't question GOD because he's all knowing and you are noting.....I forgot...

Bring on the negative marks...I'm so "mean" that I probably made someone cry again..... I'm just expressing my thoughts, if you don't like them....c'est la vie.

I have no problem with science, why should I? My problem is that opposite of what you say, many people use science to justify closed minds. No, it is not scientific so it can't be true without ever testing whether there is any truth in it. The open minded truth searching science you talk about is a utopian dream ignoring the reality of scientific research funding.

You state that my argument about faith in science is used by all religious nutters (no offence taken) but similarly the argument that religion is used to control the uneducated masses is as old as they come. So am I part of the uneducated masses, or part of the control mechanism perhaps? Why are there so many educated believers?

Yes I don't understand God, but then I don't understand my wife either and she is just a mere mortal.

And no tears or bad marks (where did that outburst come from?)

[srvblooze]

Not to worry fellas, Nick Bostrom's got it all sorted out. Here's the deal- We are "almost certainly" living in a simulation run by beings much more advanced than us.

http://www.simulation-argument.com/matrix.html

So play nice and perhaps we'll get extra game credits.

[PDLM]

Originally Posted by srvblooze

Not to worry fellas, Nick Bostrom's got it all sorted out. Here's the deal- We are "almost certainly" living in a simulation run by beings much more advanced than us.

A credit to the late, great Douglas Adams would have been nice in that since he worked that one out about 20 years ago.

And don't anyone stuff it up or the mice will be furious.