[KnowItAll]

Well ... in my simplistic opinion, that was part of the cause.

Then factor in defense contracts, a nation looking for a distraction, oil contracts ...

Anyways, we're digressing....

Here's another "end v/s means" question ..

Can Jack Bauer's use of extreme torture and violence in 24 -- to extract information and save millions of lives -- be justified?

[KnowItAll]

>> there must be swift execution of objectives.

Well, the mission was accomplished a while back.

(OK.. I'm shutting up now ... )

[climber07]

Originally Posted by KnowItAll

Can Jack Bauer's use of extreme torture and violence in 24 -- to extract information and save millions of lives -- be justified?

Yes, yes, and YES!!!!

[climber07]

Originally Posted by KnowItAll

>> there must be swift execution of objectives.

Well, the mission was accomplished a while back.

(OK.. I'm shutting up now ... )

LOL The biggest problem was.....there were no objectives specified. So you're fighting a war without an end , against an enemy you can't see....its just plain STUPID!!! Fighting against insergents with a conventional army...is like trying to kill bacteria with a hammer.

The war against Religious Extremism cannot be won with guns.....it has be won with Books!!!

[KnowItAll]

How about beating up a 12 year old around to find out where he bought a pack of ciggies from, so that you can go around and close that shop down?

(bear with me...)

[climber07]

Originally Posted by KnowItAll

How about beating up a 12 year old around to find out where he bought a pack of ciggies from, so that you can go around and close that shop down?

(bear with me...)

Enforcing a stupid (self-preservation) law and saving millions of lives is a bit differen't won't you agree?

[gunsnroses]

When I talked bout mr. bush's acts and whether they r justified....
pls don't think I'd ever justify what saddam did to his ppl.....but what bush did wasn't justifiable either....it was typical american bullying others to cow down....
see when in a group there's a stronger person...ppl usually look up to that guy....consequently that guy bcomes the leader of those ppl....but when the leader assumes that he's God and can do anything and get away with it and doesn't really need any support from other members of the group (read UN) then one does start thinking that that leader is not worth having....
I'd say that whatever mess is there in this world is more or less thanks to USA....afghanistan, iraq, pakistan india....cuba...the list is endless....many more that I don't even know about....
its time that superpowers should start being humane....

[KnowItAll]

climber : which is where the ends v/s means debate gets to be more fun. Mortal relativity ...

Now what happens if the person doing the beating was the kid's dad?

GNR - Would highly recommend googling moral relativity...

Here's a good read .. http://www.bethinking.org/resource.php?ID=229

Moral relativism teaches that when it comes to morals, that which is ethically right or wrong, people do their own thing. Ethical truths depend on the individuals and groups who hold them.

What kind of moral champion does relativism produce? What is the best that relativism has to offer? What do we call those who most thoroughly apply the principles of relativism, caring nothing for others' ideas of right or wrong, those who are unmoved by others' notions of ethical standards and instead consistently follow the beat of their own moral drum?


In our society, we have a name for these people; they are a homicide detective's worst nightmare. The quintessential relativist is a sociopath, one with no conscience. This is what relativism produces.

[climber07]

Originally Posted by gunsnroses

When I talked bout mr. bush's acts and whether they r justified....
pls don't think I'd ever justify what saddam did to his ppl.....but what bush did wasn't justifiable either....it was typical american bullying others to cow down....
see when in a group there's a stronger person...ppl usually look up to that guy....consequently that guy bcomes the leader of those ppl....but when the leader assumes that he's God and can do anything and get away with it and doesn't really need any support from other members of the group (read UN) then one does start thinking that that leader is not worth having....
I'd say that whatever mess is there in this world is more or less thanks to USA....afghanistan, iraq, pakistan india....cuba...the list is endless....many more that I don't even know about....
its time that superpowers should start being humane....

Ok lets blame all the world problems on the US! Because non of the world's problems ever came stemmed from other deeply rooted issues like colonization, and random re-drawing of maps, creating of countries with people who hate each other (from other "former" superpowers).

Darn US.....just look at the mess they caused in Africa! I also heard Geroge Bush was the original source of AIDS...shhh don't tell anyone.

[climber07]

Originally Posted by KnowItAll

climber : which is where the ends v/s means debate gets to be more fun. Mortal relativity ... Now what happens if the person doing the beating was the kid's dad?

Sorry, which beating are you talking about? I got my beatings all jumbled up....are we on saving millions or on cigarettes?