[climber07]

Originally Posted by Sleuth

I am not so sure the 2 party system is at fault. I would put more blame on the two party primary system.

Exactly you have Fashits on the right and Commies on the left. Either way you lose.

[KnowItAll]

Sleuth, I'm going to recruit you into the super secret boys club (I'm assuming you're one of us .. or you're against us).. since space is limited we tend to only allow free thinkers and dogma free individuals into the bar.

I have a feeling Climber07 and Boris are already members..

[Sleuth]

There used to be liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats. With a decent number of these guys in each party, you could always bridge the gap and reach compromises. Over the past 20-30 years or so, they have all but disappeared. And you tell me, was the US a better governed place then or now?

KIA--I am not worthy. Honored, though. I notice the club is so secret you don't list it on your profile. It must be double-knock secret.

[KnowItAll]

>> It must be double-knock secret.

But we got a cool initiation .. I think it involves getting slapped a few times by Boris.

[Mr.Bing]

Originally Posted by Sleuth

I am not so sure the 2 party system is at fault. I would put more blame on the two party primary system. The primaries force middle-of-the-road candidates out. And most of America is middle-of-the-road. Since those candidates are gone, most Americans could care less about the shrill yelling from the lunatic fringes and stay home on election day.
But didn't someone (Churchill?) say something like, "democracy is the worst form of government ever conceived, except for all the others".

Nader may be "out there", but at least he deserves credit for stirring up awareness for the need of a third party.
On your Churchill quote, didn't he also say: "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter."
We look no further than the 2004 election to see that proven true. Alas (sigh), it's better than a whole lot of other options...

If you think about it the US isn't the shining example what democracy should be. We haven't even turned out to be the democracy of yeoman farmers of the jeffersonian school of thought.
For a long time in US history the republican party stood for integration, progressive thought, etc. (think abe lincoln) and the democratic party was favored by the population in current red states. liberalism wasn't even a bad word then. Much like how certain religions get hijacked by a few fanatics, over the past few decades, especially with the era of Rovian and DeLay-ish politics, many in the country have allowed its decision-making and independent thought to be usurped by a selfish cadre that panders to the lowest common denominator.
and the ratings-driven whorehouse that is the mainstream media/cable news doesn't necessarily produce socratic thinkers either...

the one redeeming thing that bush has done for american voters is after being fed up with an 8 year failure, voters hopefully will learn the lesson that you vote for the guy that's most qualified (and hopefully smarter than a monkey), not the guy that you would like to get drunk with...

And one of the better ways to see a candidate's real worthiness is if you can convince others through intelligent discourse/real debate rather than by preaching to the choir...

[Sleuth]

Originally Posted by KnowItAll

>> It must be double-knock secret.

But we got a cool initiation .. I think it involves getting slapped a few times by Boris.

With or without a wooden paddle?

[Sleuth]

Mr. Bing--Sure do have a lot of anti-GOP in that. My point is that the Dems aren't any better. They just shout from the other side of the street.
And Bush was reelected and swept the Dems so I do not think most Americans view this as 8 years of failure. At least not the honest ones. I can see it now, bumper stickers on 99% of the US car population stating "Don't Blame Me, I Voted for Kerry".
Also, people at the time didn't all agree with the Jeffersonian nonsense about rural, yeoman farmers. Jefferson's "vision", even at the time was a screwy denial of reality. (Sorry, he did the LA purchase thing, and wrote the Declaration as well as the VA Declaration of Religious Freedom, and founded a great University, but I am not a Jefferson fan.)

[Azuremain]

Obama cannot win. He's not black enough and he's not a woman. That's already 2 major flaws, but there's even a third one: He's not a Republican.

Condi Rice For President, because:

[KnowItAll]

>> He's not black enough and he's not a woman.

Which are positives for some of the electorate, but you're right... not enough for Joe Public.

Anyone betting on Fred Thompson?

[climber07]

Once the constitution as ammended, it wil be me and Arnold running in 2020 as independents. Get ready for the Schwarzenegger/Climber ticket.