[entropyfan]

Well said. The availability of ammunition would be diminished with higher taxation/pricing and the "black market" availability of bullets would be mostly non-existent. Most of the USA's gun violence problem is due to stolen weapons/illegaly obtained weapons anyway. Making the process more difficult for people who go through normal routes of purchasing a firearm doesn't really resolve anything other than taking more US money, time, and resources for coming up with more paperwork.

I think a huge misconception that people outside of the US have is that they think everyone can easily walk somewhere and just pick up a random gun at a store. Not so, in major city centers, it can be quite difficult to purchase a firearm.

Availability on the black market? I'd say you can probably buy things a lot easier in Asia on the "black market"than in the US.

To digress, has anyone yet addressed where this incident took place in!?!??!?!

THIS IS IN THE MIDDLE OF VIRGINIA! THE APPALACIANS! Ever watch deliverance?
A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE OWN GUNS and buy guns and are frankly scary people!!! I have relatives that live near there and I'm even scared of them!!

The guy had pent up issues was crazed and was able to purchase guns because he went through the normal process. There's just no way that one can figure out if someone is just going to snap like that. Anyway, the gun salesman probably didn't note anything because unlike his other customers, the guy was going through college unlike many of the gun toting virginians out there.

If I pissed any virginians off by this statement, sorry but there are certain parts of virginia that should just be avoided at all cost.

Rambling complete. Moving on to something relevant in my life.

[Boris]

It is true that in all countries there is gun crime. Even in my " old country " of the UK deaths occur from hand gun related incidence even though we have a total ban on their ownership by the general public.

Some here have written about the fact that allthough other countries HAVE gun ownership the level of crime is tremendously lower. It should be pointed out that in these countries they would have a much higher raison d'etre for such a purchase and subsequent ownership rather than the steroetypical reasons that are seen before us from the US.

Take the UK . The present legislation for a shotgun is .
Apply to purchase the licence . Purchase of a suitable approved thick gauge steel storage ( 2 seven lever locks , ammunition in a seperate seven lever locked container, cabinet in a concealed place, securely bolted to a fixed and imoveable structure ). Inspection by the police. Background checks. two suitable ( professional types - lawer , judge doctor etc ) witnesses on the application. Member of a registered shooting club or a REALLY good reason for needing the item for pest control ( farmers only in general ). Annual renewal and inspections . Spot checks. I had one - it was a major pain.

For a firearm it was very similar . If you took the item outside ( to go to the gun club ) , the bolt / action / firing pin assembly had to be in a locked container in a seperate part of the transport. If you where transiting on foot a second person would have to carry . Any ammunition was "encouraged" to be stored at the central point ( gun club ) if practical. Or contained in a remote seperate storage. Gun club storage facilites had to be substatial with alarms.

Retailers of such items had masses and masses of regulations and inspections piled upon them. Gun clubs also had a heavy workload. So all this was a major pain in the butt to do and made these items very difficult to be available in the general population.

YET - we still had Dunblane.

So nothing is perfect but it was such an isolated incident and resulted in dramatic and some said draconian measures which lives on in the UK today.

YET - we still have gun crime on some level, even this last week a guy was shot in a curry house in Leeds. So you can't stop it but you can bring it down to much much lower levels that occurs many times a day on hundreds of occasions all over the US.

Even in Israel where there is a heavy gun ownership ratio ( especially in the West Bank ) and AR-16 type assault rifles are de rigueur like Peacemakers in Deadwood, the licencing protocol is intense and protracted. It may make for a more " mature and thoughtfull " ownership, but even they have their incidents. Again not perfect but not an epidemic.

The US has state based law and some might say legislated in a most arcane manner for this most important of purchases seen from a potential victims point of view. Nowhere is it truelly difficult to get a firearm by anyones reasonable undertanding of the word difficult.

The difference in the level of activity in the use of guns is down to the ease of purchase and yes , I know that Criminals will always be able to get a gun. However Joe Smith who has a beef with a noisy neighbour would be highly unlikely to want to go through all the hassles of the routines I have laid out above. BUT even in the harshest of state laws with cooling off periods of 30 days I recon he would not be detered and this is proved daily throughout the US. Sad but true.

I think its going to take a VERY strong President with a guaranteed 8 yr term. To even start on any legislation to pull back ownership and with the NRA having practically unlimited funding, its really , in practice, not ever going to happen unless the " Donkey Craps on the Carpet ".

Very sadly that would mean a US Domestic incident ( not terrorist related ) of a high magnitude with high multiples of high ranked political types as victims right in the heart of the legislation required to even have a remote chance to get this thing started. We all know that even if you try or succeed in an attack upon the head of state it still has no effect. JFK , nader, nothing , zilch. Reagan also and Charlton Heston ( President of the NRA 1998-2003) was his best buddy. This guy laid out the goundwork for the attack on Reagans trusted aide Bill Brady's " Brady Bill" under the 10th amendment and resulted in this great statement of fact when passed

QUOTE " to wait up to five days for a background check to occur before purchasing a handgun from a federal firearms licensee. If the background check was returned before the five days had elapsed, then the transfer could occur at that time, and if the check had not completed in five days, then the transfer was allowed to occur. " UNQUOTE .

Some will say that the Brady Bill had some good points but with legislation written to achieve as quoted then everyones hearts go out to victims of gun violence in the US and Hestons statement of " prising from my cold dead hand " makes it all the more certain that coffin making is a " die - ing " art for all the wrong reasons.

Federal laws , high hassle rate for purchase and in 200 hundred years it might make a difference. However the 10th amendment is as powerfull at defeating that as the 2nd has been in other ways.

Maybe a time for a new Bill of Rights? After all lots of things have changed since 1776 and its not as if ALL the subsequent amendments since the original 10th have been totally life changing and truelly required " for we the people " . Just look at the 24th ( ratified 1964 ). You still have the right to vote even if you don't pay your taxes.

MMM " Thinks " Save thousands of lives from gun deaths and hell JFK was shot last year or make sure I can get my votes for re election . Vote yea for the latter and take the pay cheque.

[sylvesterjay]

and the shooting continues...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=1&cset=true

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...ck=2&cset=true

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...iewed-homepage

[PDLM]

All good reads I'm sure, but two of them require registration...

[jayinhongkong]

Originally Posted by WalkAbout

guns are easy to buy

they have a lethal impact

the shooter is detached from the act of killing (say verses a knife or a baseball bat)
~
a kid that goes nuts may stab and kill 1 maybe 2 students but not 30+

the us willing or not is a gun culture and the nra is a very strong lobby force in the us congress. the gun debate is to the point of futility. the president would rather change the constitution to protect heterosexual marriages.

americans will never bond together and make a sacrifice for the common good of the society which they live. eg~get rid of the guns & force the media / hollywood to take more responsibility for their productions.


~ possible solution ? ((since the guns are apparently here to stay)))
focus on the ammunition.
-it should be expensive
-restrict heavily who can sell it
-restrict heavily who can buy it
-shells made should be traceable
-central data sharing of ammo purchases by fbi,cia,&local police.
-ammunition for any automatic weapon should be illegal
-if need be consider a nationally monitored and run store for ammunition. ((it annoys me you can buy ammo in Kmart))

~~possible scenario..... a kid buys a few boxes of shells ... local police might just wanna check this guy out ...is he a deer hunter ? does he belong to the local gun club ?? is he nuts ??

As a former NRA member and gun owner, I understand where you guys are coming from, but my opinion is a little different.

I carried pistols and slept with a loaded Mossberg shotgun for several years. My main carry pistol of choice was a Glock 23, identical in appearance to the one used in the VTech shooting, except in .40 S&W rather than 9mm. Did I ever shoot anyone? No. Did I even need to pull it? No. Would I have used it to protect my life or someone else's life? Without a doubt.

My stance on the issue is that the penalties for misuse of a firearm should be increased, but possession of a firearm by someone who has not been adjudicated mentally ill or has violent convictions/a domestic abuse order against them should be allowed. Some people just like guns and are comfortable with them. If you're not, don't buy one. Guns are here to stay. China and India have thriving underground firearm factories. the UK has seen a recent surge in gun crime. Guns are here to stay, whether we like it or not, and gun laws keep guns out of law-abiding citizens' hands (but criminals can still get them if they wish).

Guns aren't really the issue in the US. It's the culture and mentality of a large portion of the population that made me decide to start carrying a pistol for protection.
I don't really need to do that here, since the chances of being involved in a violent confrontation are far less likely, but I would still be happy to carry one with which to protect myself and others. I believe we will see a surge of firearm crime in Hong Kong due to the porosity of the border with the Mainland.

People like me carry pistols quietly and discreetly. If I or someone else had been legally allowed to carry into VTech and had come across Cho, I believe the death toll would have been significantly lower.

Ammunition can be handloaded and reloaded at home. Almost any semiautomatic weapon can be converted to full-auto, including semiautomatic pistols. A large number of submachine guns use pistol ammunition (9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP). This makes outlawing 'automatic weapon ammunition' impossible. Due to the low cost of military caliber ammunition around the World, there are plenty of people out there with several thousand rounds of ammunition stored at home. Any time anything is banned, a thriving underground economy quickly takes up the slack.

Even with proper background checks, Virginia state law allows for private sales of firearms. The NCIS (background check) system needs serious revision. It is full of holes.

I've personally witnessed person-to-person transactions in Virginia. Anyone can sell a firearm to anyone else, as long as the seller is not a FFL holder (Federal Firearms License, i.e., a gun store owner) and the buyer is not ineligible, although no background check is conducted.
If Cho (the Korean shooter) really wanted to buy a pistol, he could have bought a used one easily. Guns aren't going anywhere in the US, so those who wish to carry pistols and are willing to pass the courses necessary to carry concealed should be allowed to carry anywhere, in my opinion. Conversely, those who abuse firearms and hurt others should be given stricter penalties.

There were probably plenty of gun owners at VTech who would have been happy to carry concealed if allowed to do so. I know I would have. Vermont allows anyone to carry concealed within its borders. It also has an extremely low murder rate. The cities and states with the highest murder rates actually have the strictest laws. Look at DC for example.

More money needs to be spent on helping the mentally ill. The Federal background check system also needs to be revamped to keep firearms out of the hands of the disqualified. If America truly wants to keep the streets safe, qualified and skilled gun owners should be allowed to carry concealed and discreetly. What happened in VA could happen in HK if someone was determined enough.

[sylvesterjay]

JayinHK...didn't I kick your butt at paintball last year?

[jayinhongkong]

Funny, I recall taking everyone out at one point I did get shot in the head at one point though: by one of the Chinese girls. Just goes to show how firearms are equalizers. Even though I'm quite skilled with them, I still got taken out. Guns are always going to be around. Unfortunately, in some parts of the World, they're controlled by criminals.

Many in law enforcement are also inadequately trained. I've seen cops with 20+ years on the force handle firearms in a manner that seriously worried me. Firearm training for law enforcement definitely needs to be stepped up. They also need better psychological screening.

A well-regulated populace is also very necessary to keep those in power (who often abuse it) in check. Without the ability to effect change, we're subservient to those who wish to control us.

[freeier]

well, granted that a properly held handgun in vtech wld have reduced the casualty, but in the first place there shld have been zero casualty. i.e. cho shld never have been able to get into a situation where he can kill even 1 person.

[jayinhongkong]

Unfortunately, those who really want a gun can get one, just like one can always get illegal drugs if one desires them. There's no country in the World where an illegal firearm can't be purchased. To think otherwise is just foolishness. What we need is education, rather than legislation. The gun didn't kill anyone. It was Cho's decision to use it in a manner that lead to the loss of innocent life. He could have cooked up some homemade explosive with household chemicals for a lot less money. He could have practically blown up 1/2 of VTech with stuff you can buy at the supermarket. What are we going to do next, ban ammonia?

[PDLM]

Originally Posted by jayinhongkong

Vermont allows anyone to carry concealed within its borders. It also has an extremely low murder rate.

By US standards yes, but still more than double the murder rate in the UK, for example.