[sylvesterjay]

guns don't kill people, dumbasses with guns kill people...

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/1-4-2006-85424.asp

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...s_1m2hail.html

I was living in the US for the Y2K new years, and I remember hearing the gunfire and the news reports the next day of the numbnuts that hurt themselves. Hey Jethro...here's a thought for ya...gravity works eh! fricking morons with guns

[sensualdragon]

Originally Posted by freeier

so its not the same vice versa ?
that's quite an arrogant way of saying :my facts are more accurate than your facts!

You're such a nebbish.

[expat sam]

Bottom line as climber said - let us Americans decide for ourselves how we want to live and take things forward. Our gun culture is clearly different from the others including Canadians - which is fine cos you guys can never vote to change the laws in the US no matter how much you bicker about the rationality of owning a firearm.

I've been back in the US this week and can tell you the focus post-Virginia has not even touched on gun control (which ultimately is a peripheral issue to the tragedy) - and thank god for that!

[TwistedFates]

Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as just letting US decide what is best for themselves always. While it is their own country, George Bush and his cronies don't understand the world is flat. The ridiculous things they do has geopolitical consequences that stretch far and wide. Their bulls**t wars and fantasy labeling of countries being "evil" have made the whole world a much, much, less safer place. Their happy gun-totting culture has ramifications north of the border in Canada because scum bags go down to US to get guns where it is readily available. This is an unfortunate result.

[Mat]

Originally Posted by expat sam

Bottom line as climber said - let us Americans decide for ourselves how we want to live and take things forward.

I didn't want to go that road but what is the irony considereing the mess you guys created in Iraq...why didnt you let them decide what is best for them???

[HK_Newbie100]

I?ve read Freakonomics, which is written by a highly talked about (imo, hyped) economist, Steven Levitt, and supposedly one of the 100 top movers and shakers in Time magazine for 2006, and indeed, the book gives the statistic relating to swimming pools vs gun deaths. But he talks about the subject of guns in the context of an overall falling crime rate over the past couple of decades. He mentions that in Switzerland, all males are issued with guns - which they can keep at home - as part of their militia duty. And yet Switzerland is one of the safest places in the world. But he also mentions that 2/3 of homicides in the US involve guns and that US homicide rates are much higher than most countries, which suggests that they are that high partly due to the easy availability of guns. Also, he casts great doubt on the right to carry (more guns would make people safer) argument. I doubt he is in favour of guns overall.

Personally, I think there?s no doubt that much stricter gun control like that of UK would lower gun related homicides. That Cho guy would unlikely have committed his crime on UK soil. But unfortunately, you cannot legislate on something that is as widely supported as gun ownership in the US. It would just make criminals out of the owners who genuinely believe (delude themselves?) they have a god given right to bear arms. Many simply won?t turn them in. The onus is on US citizens themselves to realize they have no need for them, that society as a whole would benefit over time from taking guns out of the equation of everyday life. But I think the desire for gun ownership is a symptom of the deeper American psyche that they need to protect their top dog status in the world, by force if necessary. A gun is a symbol of power. To rob them of their guns, both civilian and military, would be to rob them of their identity of being the greatest nation and people the world has ever seen. That?s why very few politicians advocate gun control ? it would simply hurt votes. So guns will stay as far as the eye can see. And in a country where people are pressurised to be competitive and perfect as possible, where many people and their dogs need a shrink and a facelift to conform to the norm, where winner takes all economically to create a massive gulf between the have and have nots that result in many people feeling left behind and aggrieved, it really doesn?t help that you can get hold of a gun so easily. It just becomes a viscous circle where social chasms between citizens begets fear and the need for self protection, that begets greater social chasm and so on.

Don?t get me wrong, I love the US and its people. Many of the most enlightened thinkers are US. Its products (as I type into my Dell laptop) are world beating. But it is a culture of deep social divides that throws up both the best and the worst the world has to offer, the current cowboy administration being an example of the latter.

[climber07]

Originally Posted by TwistedFates

Unfortunately, it isn't as simple as just letting US decide what is best for themselves always. While it is their own country, George Bush and his cronies don't understand the world is flat. The ridiculous things they do has geopolitical consequences that stretch far and wide. Their bulls**t wars and fantasy labeling of countries being "evil" have made the whole world a much, much, less safer place. Their happy gun-totting culture has ramifications north of the border in Canada because scum bags go down to US to get guns where it is readily available. This is an unfortunate result.

Originally Posted by Mat

I didn't want to go that road but what is the irony considereing the mess you guys created in Iraq...why didnt you let them decide what is best for them???

Alright, so you guys want to head down that path? Very well, lets!

If I recall correctly, UK was just as much on the bandwagon for the Iraq war as was US....was it just my imagination or is Tony Blair simply George Bush's puppet? (rather pathetic if that's the case). Considering Bush is a dumbass. Whether you like it or not US is the current ROMAN EMPIRE. So naturally its going to face a lot of grief from places which are no longer Geopolitically significant.

Anyone with half a brain cell could have predicted what a clusterf*ck this war would end up being and it was not the right time or place for it. When you turn from a Liberator into an Occupier no war is winnable.

Unfortunately, even worse problem than the war are the blind worldwide hippies who trully dont realize what danger the world faces in the future. Its always the pacifists like Chamberlain, who turn a blind eye to the problems and wish to reach "Peace in Our Time" with the very people who want them dead.

The problem is that in the modern world no one in the West has the guts to trully fight the wars. The concept of military & civilian casualties and "collateral damage" is too much for the Western Countries to stomach. That's why Iraq war will never be won (too many embedded CNN & BBC media). Wars are evil, wars are bloody and as horrible as it is, innocent people die in wars. Until people trully understand that, they shouldn't get involved in one.

Another problem is to identify the enemy you're fighting. It's simply not possible to fight Extremist Militants and even groups like "Al Queda" with conventional military and weapons. It's like trying to kill bacteria with a hammer.

I will argue that some of the worlds biggest problems are caused by extremest religious fanatics in the World. From the Crazy Right Wing Christians in the US (bombing abortion clinics and teaching creationism in public schools) to the Islamic nutjobs who outlaw Western hairstyles and keep women enslaved. How do you combat ignorance???? With Education and Independent Thought. The problem is with desire. You can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn............

Rant Over.

[sylvesterjay]

thats not a rant. thats a well thought out and presented argument. good job

[TwistedFates]

I wholeheartedly agree. I would add to your rant that, to win a war, it must first be one. The "war" on terror, and the "war" in Iraq are hocus-pocus crap the Bush empire made up. The only terror and war are the sh*t they brewed themselves.

And also the worldwide hippies do realize the danger it faces. At least NOW they do. Because Bush stirred it up. While Islamic extremists are bad, it is the meddling of US that has brought it to new level of desperation. Now bravados all over the world are taking up the "fight" for no better reason than because if there's some idiot blowing himself up for his God, they should do the same. You don't improve the world by provoking war. If you live by the sword, then be prepared to die by it. If an Islamic Extremist blew up half of Manhattan Island I would shrug my shoulders and look for other news to read.

It is my contention that it isn't so much a chicken and egg problem of religion and ignorance. I believe the root lies in education which allows a hope for a better life. When your country is poor and there is little hope, there is only one thing to turn to - religion. After all, you know nothing better, and the only person that seems to want to "help" you is some religious teacher. This hi-lights the ridiculousness of Israel's constant suppression of the Palestinians because they are creating the situation for terrorists to flourish. When your life is hopeless and there is nothing better, that's when you cling to "false" hopes. And once religion takes hold, it is not going to be easy to pry them apart. This is why religion is more popular amongst the poorer, less educated individuals of the world. Salman Rushdie's argument holds in my opinion that "The first obstacle to thought is religion." Religion is an impediment to rational thought and modernity for the most part because there is no rationality behind a super being telling you to do something through a book written by men. However, the real problem isn't that religion is such, it is that people have to turn to religion in the first place. Especially when some jackass thought that spending $422,000,000,000 (to date) to attack and invade countries rather than battling illiteracy, poverty, AIDS, and other problems today was the best thing he can do for the world.

[sensualdragon]

Originally Posted by sylvesterjay

thats not a rant. thats a well thought out and presented argument. good job

I'd expect a comment like that from you. haha!